[(0:01)] Narrator: This week on the Sonic Truth, Veritonic's digital marketing manager, Sabrina Nielsen sits down with Michelle Dale of Wonder Media Network to discuss how the podcast marketing space has evolved over the last year. The innovations that Wonder Media has in place to deviate from a one-size-fits-all marketing approach and the power of cross-network collaboration. Welcome again to the Sonic truth. 

[(0:26)] Sabrina Nielson: Hello there and welcome back everybody to the Sonic Truth. On today's episode, I am joined by Michelle Dale, marketing manager at Wonder Media Network. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. 

[(0:38)] Michelle Dale: Thanks so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of the podcast. 

[(0:41)] Sabrina: I'm so happy to hear that. Uhm, let's go ahead and dive in and get started on all the awesome content we're going to cover today. I want to start with a fun one. We definitely know that right now, world of marketing is just in a constant state of flux. Can you talk to us a little bit more about how the podcast marketing space has shifted over the past year and ways in which the Wonder Media Network team is innovating to overcome any of the obstacles that [inaudible] today.

[(1:07)] Michelle: Yeah, definitely. I think that it's no you know, all podcast marketers are experiencing very similar issues right now no matter what kind of level you're at, whether you're at a really big company or a smaller independent company like Wonder Media Network. It's no secret that at the space is much more crowded than it has been before and there's a lot of great content out there and there's also, you know, an influx of people that have influence outside of the podcast face, you know, uh, celebrities and journalists who are, kind of want to, want a piece of the podcast game. So it's definitely over the past year, we've had to respond by shifting some of our, our strategies. Up until this last year, we had very limited, we were spending very limited money and marketing. Most of our marketing was actually done organically, blew it with, you know, with a few exceptions here and there. And we are now, like, looking at [inaudible] where it makes sense but I think that and, you know, that's definitely a shift over the past year, but because we were grounded in this organic growth model, we're really careful with where we spend and how we spend. And I think that because we have made this shift, uhm, it has forced us to be much more data driven to see what works. I think again, over the, over the past year we've built out ways to track all of our, you know, most, the vast majority of our marketing efforts because we are putting so much in so many financial and like human resources and into marketing. And we really want to be able to have a better idea of what we expect out of every kind of marketing effort, whether they'll be paid or unpaid and then how it performed relative to our, to our expectations. So I think that a big shift in the last year has been kind of analyzing all of that, that data that exists it already. But maybe it wasn't being combed through as, as much before. And, uhm, I also think that one of the other things that we've done in the past year to kind of meet this, meet this challenge is borrow from more kind of, more marketing outlets for, uhm, different items, right? Like we have definitely experimented with out of home and guerrilla marketing, which has been really exciting. 

[(3:19)] Sabrina: Sure, sure. 

[(3:20)] Michelle: Yeah, we had our show, "I was never there", premiere at the Tribeca Festival this past June which was awesome. And we definitely borrowed from something you might see for a, a, a movie or a TV show. Uhm, we did run and out of home campaign where you had digital billboard trucks driving around New York City that we're advertising the podcast which was great. And we did even also, uh, print out a bunch of coasters and create a bunch of cups, uhm, to distribute in [inaudible] bars in New York City It is tied into the theme of the podcast and we've done similar kind of guerrilla marketing or out-of-home marketing efforts with our latest show,
Teaching Texas. It's about the, the state of the surprising history behind America's latest culture war so public education. And we created bookmarks with QR codes that we sent to independent book stores around the country. So, you know, really trying to use these marketing techniques that, that have not always been seen in traditional kind of podcast marketing, but have been used to market other forms of media time and time again. And, you know, looking to see how people are marketing media whether that be podcasting or a TV show or a magazine or a product. And, uhm, we've also, you know, I'm lucky to have a lot of friends that were in the digital marketing space, where we can kind of trade tips and tricks. And I think that by using all these tools, it's really allowed us to kind of disrupt our traditional playbook of how we market podcast and add value in creative ways. 

[(4:54)] Sabrina: Absolutely and I think that piece of jargon specifically deviation from the standard marketing playbook, it's one of my favorite Buzz
words that I've heard you use when you've had....

[(5:03)]Michelle: Yeah.

[(5:04)] Sabrina: ....ask because it really is so incredibly powerful when you deviate for the normer kind of beer from that status quo when you're showing people things and promoting in ways that folks don't necessarily expect for your medium or for your vertical. So, I think that's super powerful. Kind of continuing on the same marketing train and looking bigger picture so maybe not one specific event, not one specific podcast, not one specific project in general. but overall, can you talk about the different ways that the Wonder Media Network team is addressing veering from that status quo of one-size-fits-all marketing? So across the board kind of what does that process look like when you have a new project that falls under your umbrella and you want to make sure that it's making the most significant impact and deviating from what people are expecting to see? 

[(5:52)] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. I think what were Wonder Media Network really stands out is that because we are, uhm, an independent start up where we're very flexible and the marketing and business teams work really, really closely with the editorial teams. I, I think that that's, uh, becoming rare in the, in the industry and it gives us, it gives the marketing team, a huge leg up to work so closely with the editorial teams. When we have new projects come in, marketing is you know, marketing is involved now and everything from reviewing pitches to, you know, popping into certain development to see if you know development meetings, to see how the pro-, the project is progressing along. And before we do anything, or put together any marketing plan, we are meeting with our editorial team to hear, you know, what, what they love about the project. The most interesting things that they found in their research, what's getting them really excited, not just kind of on a macro level but maybe even on a really small level, maybe there's a tidbit in, you know, [inaudible] halfway through episode 3 that somebody found super interesting like a little nugget of information that, uhm, it turns out that that person that they found is really cool or that product...

[(7:07)] Sabrina: Right.

[(7:07)] Michelle: ...that they, that was mentioned.

[(7:09)] Sabrina: Right.

[(7:09)] Michelle: Uhm, we can grab onto that and we can reach out to them in the real world and use it as a marketing opportunity. [laughs] Uhm, and so, I think that the process, you know, the process looks similar in a sense for each show than that we are, you know, we're meeting with our internal marketing team, where it's like a no holds bar brainstorm, no bad ideas and then we're, we're meeting with the editorial team to make sure that they're fully integrated into the marketing process. And I think that that's where, uhm, we get funky and we get these ideas to veer off of the traditional path. 

[(7:42)] Sabrina: Absolutely. It takes a village, right? Everybody has their hands in a couple of days pots so those different perspectives that you're able to gain from all members of your team can be really, really powerful and pivoting. Similarly on the collaboration front, we know that collaboration as a whole is definitely at the forefront of who your team is at Wonder Media Network ensuring that important stories are able to be told and heard, can you elaborate on the different ways cross-network collaboration impacts the success in the podcasting world today?

[(8:10)] Michelle: Yeah. I'm, I'm really heartened to see that, uhm, as the industry has grown, a lot of its, you know, roots of collaboration have remained and I think it's a really unique industry in that such small, you know, doesn't really matter your size. Everyone is working together and I've heard the phrase from other marketers, you know, rising tide's lifts of all boats and I think that that's that's really true. We, you know, we again, is trying to escape that playbook. We, of course, are working with other partners to look at you know, mutually beneficial feed drop swaps and cross promos. But what I've really started to look for over the past I would say, over the past half of a year, is to figure out what are the deeper collaborations we can do that are, that are not on the playbook that will help both shows. And I think that that really requires you to have personal relationships with other podcast marketers who are like down to try new things. [laughs] Uhm, we found a great partner for our climate poetry show, As She Rises at APM Studios. They have a show called the Slow Down, with an Italy [inaudible] and we did a collaboration with them for, for As She Rises. Uhm, it's a 5-minute daily poetry podcast. We use the same poets in As She Rises as they used in the Slow Down for a week in April, during Earth week and that really, I think, you know, it boosted numbers on our side of boost, the numbers on their side and it was a great way to collaborate where the content really made sense. But it was, you know, I'm kind of a marketing idea and it had, you know, complementary assets in the whole thing and we're working on a collaboration, which should go through, which I think will be really cool with crooked right now. But, uhm, again, that it comes when the editorial and the content is there and matches up and when you have, uhm, a marketing partner at the other company who is, is really excited and down to do something a little bit extra and a little bit different than a traditional cross-promote swap. And I think that that is really important and it's going to be critical to our success over the, uhm, next year or so.

[(10:13)] Sabrina: Most definitely and I, I hear just a major trend in everything you're speaking to. The power of innovation and everything your team is doing and all of your collaborators as well. So it's clear that across the board,  its, its powerful. And again, not to keep iterating this but it's definitely one of my favorite phrases and one of my favorite ways that someone has verbalize this but that marketing playbook, we really cannot state to that status quo anymore....

[(10:37)] Michelle: Yeah. 

[(10:37)] Sabrina: ...across any medium across any vertical, it's just not going to get anybody to the heightened place that they want to be in today. 

[(10:44)] Michelle: [inaudible].

[(10:44)] Sabrina: So, uhm, I did want to deviate and switch into a couple of fun rapid fire questions if you're game?

[(10:50)] Michelle: Yes, always game. 

[(10:52)] Sabrina: [laughs] Perfect. First and foremost, what is the best thing that you've ever purchased from a podcast ad? 

[(10:59)] Michelle: I, [exhales] the best thing I've ever purchased from a podcast ad, has definitely been a G1 or athletic [inaudible]. 

[(11:06)] Sabrina: Yes.

[(11:06)] Michelle: I am, I am biased. They are a sponsor for our show majority of 54, and I have had the pleasure of working with their team, uh, over the past year. But I, I am not a huge supplement person. I have never tried one before and it was delicious and then it was really like they wore me down and then developing the personal relationship with their team. I had to try it and absolutely loved it.

[(11:31)] Sabrina: [laughs] That's perfect. It's awesome. [inaudible] experience. 

[(11:35)] Michelle: Yeah. [laughs]

[(11:37)] Sabrina: All right. If you could only listen to one podcast for the rest of your life, what would it be and why? 

[(11:43)] Michelle: [laughs] This one is really hard for me because I think generally, the podcast I listened to fall into 2 buckets, right? The like fun entertainment podcast and the podcast I'm listening to for work or to be to learn something or etc., uhm, as much as I would love to say that I'm going to pick a really smart podcast, not that this podcast is not smart, but for something for learning purposes, I'm going entertainment. Uhm...

[(12:06)] Sabrina: Sure.

[(12:06)] Michelle: And I would say, [inaudible] Us with bow and yang, and Matt Rogers, they are both so funny. They make my Wednesday's happier, uhm, and I love listening to them breakdown culture. 

[(12:17)] Sabrina: [laughs] Incredible, I don't think we spoke about this one time before, but it is valuable to have a little fun, a little light in your life if you're only going to listen to one podcast for forever so....

[(12:28)] Michelle: Oh, definitely. Definitely. And they are, you know, they do really break things down in a, I, I appreciate the way that they connect different cultural moments to what's happening in the world. So they're, they do it in a smart way that is still hilariously fun so agreed. 

[(12:42)] Sabrina: Most definitely. You're getting the best of both world. Last but certainly not least, if you could have any podcast host over as a dinner guest, who would you choose and why?

[(12:52)] Michelle: I think if I could bend the rules a little bit and choose 2, I would choose Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway from, from pivot. I really enjoy their show. I find them fascinating. I would just kind of want to be another, I would want to ask them million questions but really be a fly on the wall for their, for their conversation and answers. So probably the 2 of them.

[(13:12)] Sabrina: I absolutely love your answer. Michelle, thank you so incredibly much for joining us today. This conversation has been spectacular. I say it once again, but as a marketer to another marketer, I absolutely love chatting with you about all things innovation, all things marketing and want to thank everybody for tuning in today to this episode of the Sonic Truth.

[(13:30)] Michelle: Thanks so much, Sabrina.

Narrator: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about Audio Research, testing and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing at veritonic.com.

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