Host: This week on the Sonic Truth Veritonic's VP of Marketing, Kristen Sharon sits down with Maria Tullin of Horizon Media to discuss the power of audio as a marketing channel, how the popularity of podcasting has impacted the way clients think about leveraging audio and how the advent of audio research, testing and performance tech has impacted the capacity at which audio, is baked into marketing mixes today. We hope you enjoyed this episode and welcome again to the Sonic Truth. Kristen: [(0:28)] Hi Maria. Thank you so much for joining us today. Maria: [(0:31)] Sure, happy weekend. Kristen: [(0:33)] So, for our listeners today we are joined by Maria Tullin, VP Managing Director Advanced and Digital Audio at Horizon Media. How long have you been with Horizon? Maria: [(0:44)] I have been with Horizon for over 14 years. Audience: [(0:48)] Wow. Maria: [(0:49)] It's been a... It's been a long journey. I met my husband at work. Um, so business is a pretty personal for me. Kristen: [(0:54)] That's awesome. I love that. And has your role at, uh, at Horizon always been audio focused over the 14 years or has it evolved into audio as audio kinda came up and gained popularity? Maria: [(1:06)] Yeah, it's always been audio. Um, I started, um, within the local radio team. Um, we rebranded in 2009 to be audio, um, as we started seeing streaming and, and everything... everything digital really started to pop. My role, I think, the reason why that I've stayed so long is because I've been able to, kind of, evolve with the marketplace. Starting with local and then moving more towards streaming, podcasting and just national, in general. It's kind of allowed me to, to grow while staying in the same company. So, that's been really why I have stayed. Kristen: [(1:40)] I'm sure you've seen a lot of evolution and change over that period of time. I feel like even in the last five years so much has changed in audio. Maria: [(1:48)] Yeah, I-I would agree with that, specifically podcasting. I mean, it's been a little more than five years but for sure, um, growth in that space has, has changed things quite a bit. Kristen: [(1:60)] I feel like Horizon, as an agency has been such a huge cheerleader of audio. Since, you know, audio was, has become such a-an effective marketing vehicle. What about streaming audio and podcasting in particular, do you feel makes it a great complement to other advertising channels? Maria: [(2:18)] So I think, audio look from a broader sense, including broadcast has always been a reach builder. So for that reason, it's, it's been a great complement to other channels, like TV. Uh, we always see a lift there, but audio has been really difficult to measure. The fact that we're able to measure streaming and podcasting now has made it easier for some brands to digest it, and to really give podcasting and streaming the credit that's due. That's something that, I think, had been lacking in the past and it, it's been one of those things that anecdotally, people have known that the audio kind of builds reach and adds effectiveness. Um, when you're looking at it from more of an omni-channel mix, but being able to apply that attribution has really helped us to prove it. Kristen: [(3:07)]How much of it being a screenless medium, with like knowing how mobile audiences are today? You know, they're listening in the car, on the way to the gym, while they're walking, while they're cooking with their family. Audio is just everywhere. How much of that do you feel like has impacted its use as a marketing channel? Maria: [(3:30)] I think... I think people's daily lives has changed quite a bit over the last five years. I mean, specifically the last two or three really dramatically. Um, but it's really easy to consume audio. So I think, what we've found is that it's not that people are consuming other mediums less. It's that they're kind of finding those extra hours in the day. Like you said, they're washing their dishes, they're cooking. Um, that's when I listen to podcasts. Um, driving to pick my child up from school, things like that. Um, people are finding those extra moments in their day and that's when they're interacting with audio. Um, and I think adding in those hours is why marketers are flocking to it. It's kind of allowing people to have more of an intimate experience, while they're doing things that are personal to them. Kristen: [(4:23)] Great. That's... That is funny, you mentioned that driving to pick your child up from school. That's when I listened, as well. So, it could take me like, occasionally a full week to get through an episode. Because [laughing] depending on the commune, how much traffic. I hit him, like, "Oh, there's traffic. I could do one more episode but..." Maria: [(4:36)] Yeah, I do the same thing. Kristen: [(4:38)] Um, so in terms of, you know, what you're seeing from an agency perspective and with client's budgets, um, shifting not necessarily out of other channels and into audio but just more towards audio even including, traditional radio. Can you talk a little bit about that shift that you've seen and how it's kind of taken shape over the last couple of years? Maria: [(5:01)] So, ah, going back even, even farther than that, we've kind of recommended that brands take an approach where they're putting a certain percentage of dollars for broadcast and a certain towards streaming. Over time, that mix has evolved. Um, I-I think there was a headline and maybe about a year ago now, um, that people were spending more than 50% of time in digital audio. Um, I think that was a really exciting headline. I th-, but when it comes to spending dollars, I think it makes sense to take into consideration overall add loads and what's addressable. So, we don't recommend like, shifting all the dollars over to podcasting over streaming just because you need to take into consideration, you know, what's premium? Um, where are we actually able to serve ads to people? So for that reason, you know, we still don't recommend a full 50% over to, over to streaming and, and podcasting. But that being said, we're seeing more and more brands getting really excited about podcasting and like, kind of dipping their toe in. Um, a lot of those brands have already been active within the streaming and a lot of those brands, um, are really focused on attribution. And the way that attribution has progressed over the last three to five years has been so dramatic that it's allowed brands to get really comfortable there and to start to, you know, see results and, and feel like they're getting that return on investment. I think we're seeing more dollars being spent in streaming and podcasting directly correlating with the rise in suitable attribution partners. So, being able to measure has really made more brands comfortable, that weren't comfortable before. And seeing the time spent listening overall, go up, has made brands that are less concerned about, like, those traditional DC brands, more, um, brand awareness. Focused clients are comfortable being in the space, as well, because they're watching those hours listening, go up as well. Kristen: [(7:10)] That's actually the perfect segue. Um, there have been a number of tools that have come about in recent years, really around research testing and measurement, help brands and marketers understand the efficacy of audio as a channel. And so you've mentioned attribution. Are there... I feel like that's a really hot topic right now to your point. Everyone's looking for an attribution partner. They're all looking for, you know, data to understand how their investment in audio is performing and ultimately contributing to their goals. Are you finding that the information that's available currently from an attribution perspective is accepted? Are they looking for anything additional? Like, are there anything that attribution providers can be working on to enhance the data that's provided into, I mean, increase the confidence in the channel even more? Maria: [(7:59)] Yeah, I-I think that's an interesting question. I think, what's been frustrating is that for a very long time we've been asking for attribution solutions and now that we have them. Um, in some ways, it feels like it's still not good enough. Um, and when I say that, you know, we talked earlier about how audio is a great complement to other channels. Um, by having attribution that's focused in one channel. We're kind of giving a 100% credit to anybody who's heard of an audio ad, um, to any sort of purchase event or whatever other event that we're talking. So, while that's giving audio the credit that it is due. It doesn't take into account what's happening among other channel. Kristen: [(8:44)] That makes sense. And let's talk about testing for a second. Um, how many of or I guess... To back up, so brands you say, that are like in investing already in podcasting as an advertising medium. Either, they're testing the waters or they're all in in that they know it's an effective vehicle to include in their, um, channel buys they're in. Do you find or are you seeing any kind of increase in the desire to test creative, before it goes to market? Just to really know that what they're investing in is guaranteed to resonate with their target audiences. Is that even in... Is that even a thought today in the majority of the brands that are experimenting with audio? Maria: [(9:29)] Um, yes, I would say that's happening more within streaming than it is within podcasting. Just because a lot of what we're doing in the podcasting is more based on, you know, putting together copy points and really leaning into that host experience. Um, you know, that could change as well. There's so much going on within the space. Um, different things available with programmatic and um, the AI in general. But I would say that the majority of the testing was taking place for us, is happening within streaming. Just because it's a little more cut-and-dry and easier to use the brand creative and and have it be very measurable and have a center sandwich. Creative is performing better than another. Kristen: [(10:14)] And in the case of host read ads, what's the m-most important thing that they're looking at there to determine if it will be effective? Are they really just taking into account the relationship and the weight that the host has with the audience and that intimate connection there to decide if that's best? Or is it like, are they actually thinking about, you know, this host might be beloved but is their voice right for, you know, exactly what I'd like to promote or does it align with my brands? Like, are they thinking about the even, you know, script points and everything else, in terms of the actual host that they're working with? Maria: [(10:51)] Um, when it comes to host reads, I think the number, the number one thing is making sure that the podcast itself aligns with the audience. Um, it doesn't necessarily need to be super on the nose, in terms of the content being exactly lined up with the brand. But we want the host to be aligned with the brand. We want the host to be somebody who, you know, has a good following of people that fall into our audience. Um, and also just being influential person. I think people have that really solid connection with their podcast host. They do feel like they're, they're friends to an extent. It feels like someone who, who you know, is sort of chatting with you in your car. Um, I think that taking advantage of that is really important. So making sure that the host a, can truly endorse the product. It's really important and, and be, can really, um, you know, use that weight to push their listeners to be interested. Or at least, you know, become aware of the product. It's more important than necessarily the voice. The people listening already care about that host. Um, so I would kind of rate that of a lower importance and more focusing on, can this host truly endorse this brand. And do they like to rant?Um, are they getting that point across with their audience? Kristen: [(12:18)] I wonder about that, too. Like, even in my own personal podcast listening experience. Occasionally, you hear host that's, you know, really high profile, very influential, promoting something that you wouldn't expect or you know, whether it's a car brand that you're like, they definitely don't drive that car. Maria: [(12:34)] Yup. Kristen: [(12:35)] You know, and it... To me it's kind of funny coz as much, i-it you know, as much weight as that holds even with me because I really liked that host. And I, you know, I want to align like, I believe that they're aligned with the things that I like, and my hobbies and interests and topics that are important to me. It does occasionally call into question, like, what are they really getting out of this, by promoting this. So it's interesting that, you know, that is something that is always reinforced in that. It has to be a good match between the brand and the host. Maria: [(13:01)] Yeah, I think that's really important. Um, I think it, it's nice sometimes to take advantage of really popular hosts. Um, people who are big names, but I-I almost and I don't really wanna... When I say that its with a grain of salt because every brand has different priorities and different objectives and audiences. But sometimes the smaller shows perform amazing because those people truly feel like this host is their friend, is someone that they identify with, is someone who has the same likes and dislikes, maybe the same financial bracket, maybe the same location. Things like that. So, the endorsement from someone like that, who you feel is like you. Um, I think carries a lot of weight depending on what brand we're talking about. So, your point, like an A-list celebrity is not necessarily shopping at certain stores or, um, you know, buying specific products. It calls the authenticity into question. Um, and what I think is so great about the space is that there's two million podcasters. There's something... There's something for everybody. Um, you can really find somebody who you identify with. And that person's recommendation, is really valuable. Kristen: [(14:19)] Yeah, agreed. Before we move into our rapid fire, ah, portion of the podcast, which is a favorite. Um, is there anything else that you'd like to, um, promote or anything that you'd recommend, you know, yourself for on behalf of Horizon, in terms of, you know, things that brands and marketers should really be thinking about when it comes to investing in audio. Maria: [(14:42)] I think the biggest thing is taking advantage of the medium. Making sure that, you know, your tailoring the creative to the medium. Um, you don't want a radio ad to be on a podcast. You wanna make sure that you, the creative that's being presented fits with not only the specific podcast, but the channel, in general. Um, making sure that you're taking advantage of the authenticity of the platform. Um, you know what I've just said about like A-list celebrities versus like your neighborhood friend. It's really important to lean into whichever direction you're going with. Um, and not just like repurpose spots. Kristen: [(15:24)] That's really, really good advice, especially the repurposing. I feel like, there's every week we see a new article or that leadership piece on why it's so important to create content for the medium. Maria: [(15:35)] Yeah, I think one of the things I worry about with programmatic. Um, outside of extreme brand safety concerns, um that, you know, there's a lot of companies out there that are trying to solve for that as well, which is great. Um, but besides the brand safety issue of it all, um, what I worry about with programmatic, is it eliminates the publishers ability to determine what creative is being pushed in all these shows. So, in some cases, you know, people have complete control over their own inventory but in others, your kind of letting whatever ads sneaks in into the listeners experience. And I think that kind of degrades it a little bit. So again, completely depends on who's selling what. But just something to be careful about. And when I say careful, I mean, that from both of brand perspective, and also like publishers to be aware of what's actually running in your shows and is that resonating with your audience or like turning them off. Kristen: [(16:35)] Absolutely. Okay, rapid fire. Are you ready for the first question? Maria: [(16:40)] Sure. Kristen: [(16:41)] What was the last thing you purchased from a podcast ad? Maria: [(16:44)] A SimpliSafe Home Security system. Kristen: [(16:47)] Oh, and was it everything you hoped it would be? Maria: [(16:49)] It is, it's great. I love it. Kristen: [(16:51)] That's awesome. [laughter] Okay, um, in your opinion and based on your personal listening experiences, what do you feel as a consumer is the most effective call to action in a podcast ad? Maria: [(17:04)] I like custom coupon codes. And I say this because when I buy things with custom coupon codes, I feel like the person who told me to buy, it is getting the credit. So you know, it's better like, custom vanity URLs, I don't love because people don't remember those. At least to my experience but coupon codes, people do because they wanna support, whatever it is that, um, their favorite, their favorite host, their favorite Instagram celebrity, whoever it is, is you know, recommending. So people like tea, like that little connection. So, I like coupons for that reason. Kristen: [(17:41)] Agreed, it's a little bit of a give back. Maria: [(17:44)] Yes, yes, especially when you're getting free content. Kristen: [(17:47)] Exactly, exactly. Um, okay, last question. If you could be next-door neighbors with anyone podcast hosts, who would it be? And why? Maria: [(17:54)] I would like to live next door to Ashley flowers, because if I was murdered, she would definitely find my murderer. Um, and also, I think she would be really fun to like do a book club with or something like that. Kristen: [(18:07)] That's awesome. I loved it. That's a great answer. I didn't think of her. I really like that answer. That's a good one. Host: [(18:13)] Thank you so much to Maria Tullin for joining this week's episode and thank you for tuning in. At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing@veritonic.com. [END]