[(0:01)] Host: This week on The Sonic Truth. Veritonic's VP of Marketing, Kristin Charron sits down with Alyssa Meyers of Morning Brew, to unpack the latest trends in marketing and advertising. Including, how podcasting has proven to be a powerful marketing vehicle, for both reaching desired audiences, and increasing ROI. We hope you enjoyed this episode and welcome again to The Sonic Truth.

[(0:24)] Kristin Charron: All right. We are back with another episode of The Sonic Truth. Today, we are joined by Alyssa Myers, reporter of Morning Brews, Marketing Brew Newsletter. Welcome, Alyssa. 

[(0:36)] Alyssa Meyers: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be on. 

[(0:39)] Kristin: Thank you so much for coming on. I am-- I was so excited to connect with you recently. Uhm, not only do I love Morning Brew and the Marketing Brew Newsletter, but we also share a love of all things. Marvel, hiking, and buffalo chicken dip. So, we probably don't have enough time to get into all those things today, but I love that you're into all of those things, and we definitely need to catch up on all that outside of this. 

[(1:09)] Alyssa: Yes, we do certainly have a lot in common, and I will try to keep my Marvel commentary to a minimum. 

[(1:13)] Kristin: [laughs] We could do an entire episode just on Marvel. 

[(1:18)] Alyssa: We could. [laughs]

[(1:19)] Kristin: [giggles] So, thank you again for coming on. We love, you know, working with you and learning more about your journey. You obviously have a really long history of covering the latest trends in marketing and advertising. I know that you cover audio exclusively for Morning Brew. I would love to learn a little bit more about, what the-- What about the audio be in particular grabbed your attention?

[(1:43)] Alyssa: Uh-hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. You're right, I have been covering this space on and off for a few years, which is a long time relatively, I think that to win a lot of people came to it. Especially, kind of in the general public, and even in the advertising industry. A little more specifically, I wish I could take credit for coming up with the idea for the audio advertising feed myself.

[(2:02)] Kristin: Uh-hmm. [giggles]

[(2:04)] Alyssa: But I actually got started like kind of stumbled onto it. A few years ago, I had moved to New York to do a fellowship at Business Insider. So, I was on their media and advertising reporting team, just a six-month stint there. But when I started, my editor there had said, you know,  "We're curious about this podcast feed audio, we don't really have anyone who covers it, we don't know if anyone here are interested. But do you listen to podcasts? Would you be interested in sort of testing out this coverage area?" And I had listened to the big ones at that point. I listened to Serial and S Town, and The Daily, but I was not really a podcast listener, but I'm so glad I said yes.

I started covering podcasting there at Business Insider, at my editor’s request.  And from there, I just really, really loved it for a couple of reasons. The first being that people in this industry are really nice. It's not so much like covering tech or finance.

[(2:58)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(2:59)] Alyssa: I don't really think that I could do that stuff full time. When I first started writing about podcasting, obviously, I was new to it. I was fairly new to the professional world, in general. I was just a few months out of college. And some of the really big execs in the industry took time to just sit down with me, explain the landscape, that sort of thing. So, that really made a big impact. And there's also a lot of room here for coverage for a newer, younger reporter, in particular. I loved that this wasn't a space that was really, you know, being covered every day. There were so many stories to do, so many opportunities to kind of learn and some-- Establish myself, I guess, on the beat. So, yeah, I did it on and off. I kind of fell off for a couple of years after Business Insider. I was covering marketing, more generally...

[(3:46)] Kristin: Uh-huh.

[(3:46)] Alyssa: ...for a different company called Morning Consult. But when I came to Morning Brew in January, pitched the audio advertising beat again, and my editors have been just awesome about really letting me run with it.

[(3:57)] Kristin: That's awesome. And do you find as though within your coverage, there's a pretty even split today of discussions and content around podcasting, streaming audio, and broadcast radio? Or is it skewing in any one particular direction? 

[(4:15)] Alyssa: It's definitely skewing away from radio, I think. I know that there are still a lot of people in the country who listen to the radio. I think we all kind of fall into coastal biases there, you know. I live in New York, and I don't drive a car. So, I think no one listens to the radio in the car.

[(4:31)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(4:32)] Alyssa: When in reality, that is not the case for most of the country. As a personal area of interest for me, podcast advertising is, is what I gravitate toward most. I just find it most interesting, and it's what I know best. But I do think there's, there's a lot of interest, obviously, in streaming audio, music, obviously, you know, with Spotify being as become a business as it is, that comes up a lot as well. 

[(4:59)] Kristin: Sure. So let's talk about podcasting for a second time and again audio, but specifically, podcasting has been proven to be an effective and efficient marketing vehicle that an increasing number of brands are harnessing to reach their target audiences. What similarities and differences do you see in both the rise of and utilization of podcasts by, you know, brands and agencies as it compares to, say the more traditional marketing channels like video display, social that are kind of timeless and still being used?

[(5:36)] Alyssa: Yeah, I love that question. I think some similarities to other mediums, the biggest thing that I see is that brands, agencies that are just getting into podcasting, and even some that have been doing it for a few years, have the same questions, you know, about advertising on the medium as they did. I think in the early days of CTV and social, and then, you know, other digital predecessors. Although, podcasting has done a fairly good job, I think of kind of learning from the mistakes of those predecessors. But still, you know, questions start when brands come into the podcast advertising space.

First of all, about targeting. How can we target, how can we work on that, that tech needed to be improved, or I think it's pretty good these days, and then we get into questions about measurement, attribution. You know, that's something that I think the industry is increasingly addressing these days. And privacy concerns, of course. 

That's really what I was thinking when I said that the industry has done a pretty good job on that front.

[(6:33)] Kristin: Uh-huh.

[(6:33)] Alyssa: I think there's not obviously as many privacy concerns and issues as the big social media platforms faced. But it's certainly coming up more and more in podcasting. So, yeah. Those similarities I see. 

I think some of the differences are interesting. This one is for better or for worse. But podcasting, I think is a lot less regulated than other digital mediums, which seems to be alright for now. [laughs]

[(6:57)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(6:57)] Alyssa: I recently did a story about political ads on podcasting and things like that, you know, that are so heavily regulated even on the radio and another audio platform. The FCC doesn't regulate political ads on podcast. IB isn't thinking about it. It's really just up to the networks and the platforms, which seems to be going okay for now. I think people are liking it, obviously. Could present some issues as the medium continues to grow. But that’s kind of interesting. 

Also, interestingly, I think there's a higher barrier to entry for brands to really establish themselves in podcasting, which is different from social I think, specifically. You know, it's kind of no-brainer to create a Tiktok account if you're a brand. But much more consideration, I think it has to go into creating something like a brand at podcast. 

[(7:50)] Kristin: Absolutely. And it's interesting that you mentioned the idea of it being less regulated. I think it-- You know, I agree with you from like a standards perspective. But it is interesting in how it's a slippery slope with content moderation, and brand safety, and all of that. Like, there are certainly a lot of considerations and I think less official or formal regulation if you will. Like, people are just very...

[(8:18)] Alyssa: Hm-hmm.

[(8:18)] Kristin: ...very much more sensitive to, you know, the-- From an advertising perspective, the shows that the ad sits alongside and, you know, the hosts and what they believe in. So it's really interesting and I think that's only-- I think it's heating up now, but it'll be interesting to see the position that some of the hosting platforms and distribution platforms take when it comes to where is the line with content moderation, and you know, kind of making sure that everybody feels comfortable with advertising within these shows. 

[(8:51)] Alyssa: Yeah, that's a great point about brand safety there. That is, again, something, you know, similarity in questions that arise. That's when I think that is coming up a lot this year, and will more next year. I hardly have or hear a conversation about podcast advertising these days that doesn't, at the very least, mention brand safety, in some way, shape, or form.
 
[(9:11)] Kristin: Yeah, it's true. It's really true. In terms of the brands that are leveraging podcasts as part of their marketing mix. Whether there are dipping their toes in, or they are all-in, on the medium. In terms of size, vertical use of branded podcasts, are you seeing any trends in terms of the kinds of brands, or sizes of brands, or types of-- Or verticals that there within that are leveraging podcasts a little more than others? 

[(9:41)] Alyssa: Hmm. Yeah. I think some of the, you know, general knowledge that  kind of floats around in the industry is still true. Direct-to-consumer companies, I think are still, still very big in podcast advertising. Something that I've seen and I've heard a lot of other people mention as well, is a kind of a shift to more brand-building campaigns even from those DTC companies as opposed to just direct response. That's obviously still a big deal in podcast advertising. But I think from what I understand, that the early days, it was so predominantly, the art campaigns with vanity URL's and that sort of thing. 

And these days, I think brands across the board, across Industries, are finding some more success with brand building, or brand awareness campaigns on podcasting. In terms of the industry is, I think that's an interesting question. I've been asking around recently about retailers, and especially kind of like big-box retailers, getting into podcasting. I think those companies are interesting to keep an eye on. I know, like Nordstrom and Macy's have podcasts of their own. And I know Macy's has done a few campaigns with other shows. I'm not sure how much. So, I think that's interesting if you're a brand like kind of like dives fully in with your own branded podcast, and have never really tested the waters with ads or sponsorships or some other format before doing your own podcast. And I think that we almost need to see more of those major companies, not even big-box retailers but like the Frito-Lay's and the PepsiCo’s of the world. Those are the ones that have the truly big ad budgets. So, I think if we see them lean more into podcast advertising, that's when we'll kind of see real movement on the overall ad revenue front.

[(11:27)] Kristin: Agreed and that kind of touched on my next question. But if there's anything additional to add in terms of how you predict ad dollars will shift, either into or away from the podcast phase and the next six months to a year, so-

[(11:44)] Alyssa: Hmm. Yeah, I definitely don't think they are moving away from podcasting. We continue to hear even through the, the recession and as ad revenue declines for other companies like the big social media giants. Spotify just reported their earnings. They said this last quarter, they said it this quarter, that ad revenues was up, and it was led by podcasting despite, you know, some ad pullback from brands as we continue to say, you know, are we going to be in a recession or not. 

So, I don't think spend is going anywhere. I think, you know, six months to a year, I'm not sure if it's going to skyrocket. It seems that it to kind of  be maybe more of a gradual increase. Because like I said, I think for there to be a real boom, like for podcast revenue where over a billion dollars, that's great. It's not close to the whole ad market in the US. And I think for it to really catch up, that's going to take at least a few years. And it's going to take the typical massive ads spend companies, the ones, like I said. Like a PepsiCo, that have just huge ad budgets. I think they need to go more all-in on podcasting for us to see the needle on ad revenue really move a lot. 

[(12:51)] Kristin: Yeah, agreed. And I think too, in terms of those budgets, it'll be really interesting to see, you know, depending on what happens with the economy and looming recession and all of that. The sentiment I think is that audio, in general, and podcasting in particular, is a medium that people should still be investing in. And one that even if they are tightening the purse strings if you will there's potential there for targeting. And with the measurement, that's there and the tools and technology that's available now to ensure pre-market, in-market, that what you are putting out there as a brand is efficient and will resonate. It's like insurance for your buy, if you will, which some of the other mediums don't have. So, I think it'll be really interesting that as the awareness of those kind of tools increases, if that helps kind of tip the scales a little bit more towards audio than, than some of the other traditional mediums.
 
[(13:47)] Alyssa: I think that's a good point about awareness and maybe education, too. That's kind of part of what I'm trying to do with, with my reporting because I write for, you know, an advertising industry audience, where to be a newsletter, and my readers are people who are so, so smart about advertising in general. But a lot of that industry folks, just I don't know, haven't given much thought to audio, or there's I think just a general thing that goes around with people thinking it. It just this idea got stuck, that there is not targeting, or not advanced measurement tools in podcasting, and that is not really the case anymore. But I do think there's an education barrier. Something there that people aren't aware about, how far we've come in terms of things, like attribution tools on podcasting. 

[(14:34)] Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. All right, I have a couple of rapid-fire questions for you that we like to do at the end of our podcasts. If you don't mind?

[(14:43)] Alyssa: I love it. 

[(14:45)] Kristin: [laughs] All right. Number one. What was the last thing you bought from a podcast ad? 

[(14:51)] Alyssa: I believe it was a subscription to public goods, which I think it was a Crooked Media podcast that was advertising for them. Maybe a few years back, it was a while ago. 

[(15:01)] Kristin: Oh, wow.

[(15:02)] Alyssa: [laughs]

[(15:02)] Kristin: And did it end up working out?

[(15:04)] Alyssa: On and off. I have a subscription for a while, and then I canceled it. And then I recently came back to it which is why I said it again. 

[(15:10)] Kristin: Awesome.

[(15:10)] Alyssa: So, yeah. Definitely, I bought some stuff from them over the years, and heard about them first on a podcast.

[(15:16)] Kristin: That's awesome. And which podcast host would you want to be next-door neighbors with and why? 

[(15:22)] Alyssa: [laughs] Here's where I get into Marvel territory.

[(15:25)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(15:25)] Alyssa: I want to go to Marvel podcast, Jason Concepcion, also with Crooked Media these days. So, I guess I'm a big fan of them. I would love to be neighbors with him. Because I think he's the smartest person about all fandom things, Marvel, Game of Thrones, he knows everything. And so, I would be knocking on his door every day with questions and conversation. [laughs]

[(15:45)] Kristin: Yes, I love it. They would never be a boring day living next to him.

[(15:49)] Alyssa: No. [laughs]

[(15:52)] Kristin: All right, last one. If you could interview, one person passed or alive, about a topic of your choice, who would it be and what would you talk about? 

[(16:00)] Alyssa: That is a great question. I kind of have a two-part answer if that's okay.

[(16:04)] Kristin: Of course.

[(16:04)] Alyssa: Because I interview people-- Yeah, I interview people for a living.

[(16:08)] Kristin: Yeah.

[(16:08)] Alyssa: So, I have to say something professionally. Professionally, I would love to interview, Spotify's, Dawn Ostroff. So, if we've got any Spotify people listening, set me up, hook me up with Ms. Ostroff. I'd love to talk to her. I think she just has a really fascinating. Professional background, she was at like, Condé Nast and the CW, and I'm curious, you know, to just talk to her about how that has informed her approach to podcast content coming from the TV world.

I think there's some interesting threads there. And obviously would love to really get into Spotify's original podcast content strategy. I would just really like to get in the weeds with them one day about podcast ad numbers. They always say, recently, like I mentioned, and their earnings, ad revenue is up and it's led by podcasting. Break that out, Spotify. How-- [inaudible] podcast advertising. [laughs]

[(17:00)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(17:01)] Alyssa: I love to interview her professionally. That would be it really, really big milestone for me. Personally, here I go again on the Marvel thread, but obviously, Kevin Feige of Marvel Studios. I have many questions for him. [laughs]

[(17:16)] Kristin: That's amazing. Also too, really good answers.

[(17:20)] Alyssa: [laughs]

[(17:21)] Kristin: I love it. I might be able to help on that last one, but let me see what I can do. 

[(17:25)] Alyssa: Okay.

[(17:27)] Kristin: Well, thank you again, Alyssa. It's really, really wonderful to have you on. I always enjoy speaking with you. Thank you for your time and please come back anytime. 

[(17:37)] Alyssa: I would love to. Thank you, Kristin. This has been so much fun.

[(17:40)] Host: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing, and measurement. Visit veritonic.com or contact marketing at veritonic.com.

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